Category: Geeks r Us
As I wrote in another thread, I recently found the PROVOX 7 screen reader and discovered that it was made with a program called A86 assembler. So does this mean that it's written in Assembly? I looked up Assembly on Wikipedia and it said that it's used for controlling things like the cpu and the physical architecture of a computer. But what would this have to do with a screen reader? could other programs be written in these languages? Is it worth it for me to learn Assembly or to just stick with QuickBASIC? Out of curiosity, could a screen reader be written in the latter? I'd always thought that detailed ones needed to be written in more complex languages, but again, I don't know anything about this and am speaking as a user.
No.
Assembly is a language with very few symbols and is in fact used to control registers and the processor at the basic level.
It's the language used to control the volume knob on your stereo, among other things.
If you were prepared to learn Assembly you wouldn't be writing most of the posts you've written.
Most software developers go their whole lives now without learning assembly.
A scree reader for DOS could be written in Assembly basically because it would control and access certain areas as a TSR program (look that up)
lol I highly doubt my stereo is written in any computer language. But certainly, that makes sense about tsrs being written that way. I doubted that I personally needed to learn Assembly but figured I'd ask to be on the safe side. Back to QuickBASIC then.
So that means that it's gonna be difficult to find anyone to update PROVOX. This is bad. What if, way down the line, I wanted to write a screen reader of my own? Which language should I use? I'd probably want to make it a tsr too.
Why would you want to do that?
Dos is outdated.
I'll be using a modern version of the os and want to be able to use my reader with modern software that's either still in development or that was developed relatively recently. Plus, I could then write scripts etc. to either make older software more accessible or just write my own programs if I can't find anything suitable.
If you really want to do that I strongly suggest an external synth. I will not be easy using all this out-dated equipment.
Well, external or a card that goes into the computer. I don't know what else I'd use, unless ESpeak really does work. A hardware synth is a given. Now, if I really did make my own reader, I might be able to change that but that's all way way down the line.
Boy, I wish I could talk you out of this. You will find a myriad of security issues with dos.
If you do, it will be time to cellibrate!
Big Grin!
I never understood all the hype about security. Can you please explain it to me? Do you mean things like people seeing my passwords or what I write online? And yeah, it would definitely! be time to celebrate. A DOS screen reader, either with it's own built-in synth or able to use other software synths? Wow that would be amazing!
So am I to think that maybe possible **dos** does not work with anything like say the internet, or maybe a work program and is now deemed and great hobby, and that to make it actually fit for todays computing you'd really learn how to program and that mean reading some books like I've been teasing you about all along?
lol No no. It will definitely work with the internet and also with many business applications. The only reason for me learning any kind of programming, in my case now, QuickBASIC is so that I can write things that are more accessible for myself and the blind community. Many will work fine. This is just incase I come up against something that's not accesible and that has no accessible alternative or that is but that only works with older formats.
Excuse me, while I find this piece of a post here...
I never understood all the hype about security. Can you please explain it to me? Do you mean things like people seeing my passwords or what I write online?
and go ... um, what the hell? You want to use dos, but you don't understand anything about security? Yes, their are people who go without any antivirus on their computers, but me I wouldn't go that route. Wouldn't it be smart to at least look up some security stuff before you jump into this?
Tiff, please at least read about system security. I could give a great big classroom lecture but nobody wants that...and I'm feeling far to lazy to do it.
I don't usually use antivirus, firewalls etc. either though I did use some antispyware software before it became inaccessible and I like my pop-up blockers. I certainly see no harm in using any of this, but with DOS, I doubt viruses are a huge threat these days. I definitely will read up on this, though, cause now I'm really curious and this is an important one. I know that DOS has some security but it's not as high as the other systems. The only time I've really seen issues in Windows with security is when it would tell me that I'm entering a nonsecure site etc.
Well, you are on your way to becoming a Tif-of-all-trades. A little DOS, a little assembly and who knows what else. My hats off to you for your zest to learn.
Before you go out and write your own screen reader for DOS, why not go out and download jaws3.0 (I think it is). It's free. There are a few hang-ups, though. You get something like six files with floppy images on them, and you have to use an external synthesizer. But, it beats writing your own screen reader.
I'm just curious, why would you want to write your own DOS screen-reader?
Bob
Oh sir Bobby, you're somewhat mistaken. She will talk about dos, ask a bunch of questions, fire all sorts of prejudice and unsupported statements about Windows, such as it is inaccessible and unsecure, and modern computers are made in China and therefore crap, talk about sitting down to install a systemor learn programming, but you never see any of this happening. After, what, 4 months of talking about learning QBasic, despite everyone telling her the programming language is absolete and nowhere powerful enough to write anything like a screen reader, she is still insisting on it but yet, it appears, has not even written the "hello world" program. It's kind of saying she'll translate the bible into Greek but she can't be bothered to open the language Greek correspondance course she ordered last year.
It's quite amusing, but I've given up giving her any advice, for it is kind of trying to teach a hamster how to use the microwave.
Just look here when she claims anti spyware software has become inaccessible. Both MalwareBytes anti Malware and, especially, Super Anti Spyware are effective and some of the most accessible programs I have ever seen.
I believe our friend tiff is on her way to learning but often the learning curve is steep.
Believe me, I've been wanting to start this for a long time. it's extremely frustrating too now cause I have all the necessary files and the tutorials that I need to get started. But my KeyNote Gold laptop is missing a very important key that's used in it's functions. I can't remember what it is off the top of my head but the laptop was designed without. I didn't get the XP desktop here until recently. But now, I can try to run it from the DOS window or a virtual machine and see what happens. If all works out with the Dell laptop, I can use the real os and avoid any possible glitches that might come up. I thought that it wasn't really possible to write a screen reader with QuickBASIC but this is the language I'll be starting with, since it's the easiest and I can still write many useful programs with it. As I've said several times here, I might, and I do mean might, someday write a screen reader in order to keep up with modern programs and make set files for ones which already exist which may not be accessible with other readers currently available. The reason I even considered Assembly is that PROVOX was written in it. Now that reader went all the way up to version 7 and today, it's open source. So if I learned this language, after QuickBASIC, I might be able to tweek this one. VocalEyes is still being sold and ASAP can't even be found in it's full version. So it's doubtful that I could write set files for those. Granted, if there's an easier language that I can use, I'll go for it. But it's probably better that the reader can be made into a tsr and I'm not sure what other languages could be used for that. Btw, JAWS 3.0 is for Windows. However, there is a JAWS for DOS file on the Freedom Scientific site and it's freeware. I have it and intend on working with it once my laptop and/or virtual mchine issues are sorted out.
I belive she'll have a little problem making Dos work with security software, so for her experment it's not such and issue. My first reason for saying this is she'll not get online, so all will be internal, so no big deal. Now with your other computers it be good to get back to this basic investagation and find something. Many many security software programs for Windows are accessible. The buggy man is out there and you'll get bitten sooner or later without. Smile.
I will be getting online with DOS, whether I use a full client like Net-Tamer or a plain browser, such as Lynx or even Bobcat, with packet drivers and a dialer. But again, I doubt security will be so much of an issue. People don't exactly write viruses, spyware and malware for DOS these days. As for XP, I meant to say that the specific software that I used, Spyware Search and Destroy, Adaware and AVG became inaccessible with their later versions. I've heard that Avast works but the one time I tried it, it messed up my mchine. However, that was a few years ago and maybe it and the others mentioned have improved since then. I'd like to run something on my desktop cause, for some reason, the function keys on the keyboard won't work. I've tried at least two keyboards and got the same results, so am inclined to believe that I have something.
Windows updated, or have you stopped getting these? Maybe sticky keys is on? Look at the accessibility settings?
I have said before I like your dirve and all, so I'm personally waiting.
I'm on Service Pack II with the desktop. I'm not a big fan of three cause it changes Media Player keys and updates IE. However, I've used it on other machines and didn't have a problem. I'm pretty sure that sticky keys aren't on. This has been a problem for quite a long time now, but it wasn't my machine until this year, so I couldn't reformat or anything. Very curious what it is though, so that I can change it.
You will not keep a good connection using dos...you just wont.
Also, I promise you that with dos you will be hacked by someone. it's just not secuure.
I know of at least two people who use it on a daily basis. One is using the MicroSoft version exclusively. Granted, she's in another country, but I'll ask her about her connection speed. I know that there are numerous options out there, from the typical dialup, to ethernet, to dsl to wireless, so one's got to work.
To the original poster,
Windows XP with Service Pack 2 will stop receiving updates in July of this year. So I would highly recommend that you upgrade the machine to Service Pack 3, unless there is a varifiable reason why you don't want to such as hardware incompatibility. Yes there are machines where Service Pack 3 doesn't work, but those are few and far between.
I've never had a problem with it, and so long as it works, I'm happy.
But you will soon. There are serious ramafications and you are dancing on the wild side. When you don't update, you leave security holes in your system.
I say just leave it. Let her get hacked, let her get some viruses. Maybe then she'll learn.
that'll only make me switch my os faster. *smile*
they're saying, you'll get hacked on dos. what will you switch to then?
Hacked on DOS? In 2010? Okay, that's a bit strange. I would assume that most people wouldn't care or know how to do that these days. I mean, all the major spyware, viruses, malware and so on is either written for Windows, Linux or Leopard, though I haven't heard of much stuff getting past the last two. So how could a Windows virus harm me on a DOS machine? I'm asking that honestly. The only thing that might be a problem is things like them seeing my passwords etc. I probably won't buy anything, check my business e-mail or look at other majorly important sites with that machine if that's the case. But I thought that sites where you buy things have their own security features and that's why Windows says "you are now entering a secure site" or the site will have a secure button to enter information along with a standard one. Anyway, there are antivirus programs and such out there for DOS, so I can install them, assuming that they're accessible. That way, I'll be protected from the occasional wise guy who wants to play around with my os.
even so, i'd think dos would be an easier target than other OS's after all what naitive security is there built in, if any
My head is starting to hurt. Okay, this is part of my security lecture:
Dos has a verry low level of incryption built in--only a low level packet filtering capability--and so a hacker has nothing to "get past." In fact, with a simple script, your little dos machine would be split open like a ripe melon. This would expose any home network. That is to say, any routers, modems, etc. This is just one of the reasons why dos is not a safe choice. Indeed, it is regretably foolish.
If you're just saying that they could turtleback off my wireless connection, I have no problem with that. So long as they can't actually get into the files in my computer, I don't mind. I'm pretty sure there is a way to password protect those but must double check.
A good hacker can get past passwords and rip through your files.
I suppose then, that I'll just keep my important ones on my compactflash card and remove that when I go online.
Fine, but a hacker could cause more damage. For instance, the system could have it's system boot records violated. If that were to happen, so much for connecting to anything but at least you will have a good paper weight.
Would there be any way to track down said hackers and permenantly disable their machines or find out their exact location? Could a virus be made that would be sent to such machines to destroy them if they tried to access my files?
To the original poster,
Your lack of giving a damn about the security of the systems that you manage isn't a good thing. I'll say this much, being turned into a spambot or worm carying host isn't exactly fun. If DOS supports WPA or WPA2 on wireless security use it, and use a long password, do not use WEP. Properly configured, WPA or WPA2 will provide damn near bulletproof encryption. I believe there are US ISP(s) that will disconnect a net connection if allot of spam is being sent, or warn you with a phone call. Also if virus like activity is detected. Disconnecting spambots or virus infected systems isn't a bad thing. Saves the Internet if US ISP(s) decide to do so, if done properly. Yes, I'm aware of the moral and ethecal questions that will come up. I'm not saying that a US ISP should disconnect the customer without warning them or trying to help said customer delete the virus first. But if that were to happen, that would make tech support much smarter, they'd have to be. Also, I'm unsure about this, but I believe that if you left your wireless connection open and someone file shared or ran torrents off of it legal or otherwise, you might be liable for it. If you do plan to run DOS, all I can say is if you do not need a service such as ftp server, file sharing for lan connections, etc do not run it. Try to find a firewall for DOS, even if you're on dialup, it is necessary. Any OS can be hacked, no matter what it is, if the end user doesn't configure it properly. Though in doing so, you have to find a good balance between security and convenience. I don't believe some of the well-known worms that are out there are written for DOS, but they are written for Win XP without security updates.
Ooh neat! I'll check those out and see what happens. I think this is absolutely a question for computing.net, since they deal with all sorts of DOS stuff. Good to know about dialup too, since I might have to start with that, unsure yet. As for XP, what are some of the accessible antivirus and other programs that could get rid of and keep me from getting worms/trojans/spyware etc? I'm certainly willing to use them, once I know about them, especially now that I'm getting a new machine.
Most modern worms are not but it would be easy to hack dos. And tiff, no, while it would be simple to track down such a hacker, it would be unwise to mess with them. It would be like playing chess with someone with far more skill at the game. They will toss your dos box like a toy and laugh at you all the way.
lol I'd probably use Leopard or XP Pro to get to them. When I'm in that kind of mind frame, my aim is perfection.
You will not find perfection with dos. And by the way, hacking a hacker makes you no better than the hacker.
In my opinion, if you play with my freedom and invade my personal property, you deserve whatever I choose to throw at you, within reason.
IAlso, I didn't mean the perfection as a DOS reference. I was saying that the other systems could probably do it right. But anyway, back to some of the other topics here. *smile*
Yeah...but I really must inform you that you could be used as a botnet and that would not be a good thing. You, people you email, and anyone on your network will be in danger.
Well, I'll definitely see what security measures can be taken. Thanks for the warnings. I'm sure there's at least something that I can do.
Where there's a will, there's a way...
lol I'd probably use Leopard or XP Pro to get to them. When I'm in that kind of mind frame, my aim is perfection.You make me want to say to you you are really not up to steed, but I'm not here to bad mouth you. Soon as you insert your flash drive your files will be on my computer and I'll look at them then I'll rewrite them. I'm not a hacker, so that is just an example. You really need to study not assume, gbut all good. I notice you have issues with your computers and I suspect that is because like many people you refuse to update, or bother with security measures, because they are just to difficult. That is the main issue with people, so I'd personally never be able to trace files with you. You could receive mine, but I'd not receive yours. I read all your post, and you interest me, because you are stud fast. I see you threatening, but I fear you don't have the skills to get back at a novice hacker less known a pro, so. When you get serious you use Lepard, and XP? Dos is not up to task? Also you are forgetting a major part. Even with all the updated stuff I have, and I've got it all I still have accessibility issues, so Dos will be even worse. It is a great hobby sure, but it will not compare to updated stuff. The internet is just not created that way nor computing. Come on lets get there shell we? Online with Dos and on the zone. Smile.
If it ever came down to it, I'd mostly likely find someone to help me resolve the issue in a timely manner. As you said, I definitely don't have these skills and am not afraid to admit it. Actually, the only machine that I haven't updated is the desktop. All the rest were/will be properly updated. As for the former, it's not connected to the net right now. But I would like to prevent the one that changes Media Player and Internet Explorer if I can.
Tiffanitsa there's no way you will be able to learn assembler in the next five years. If you can't figure out what you need to do in order to get a DOS computer running there's no way you'll be able to learn assembly. I've pasted a program I wrote below using assembly, keep in mind that this one is fairly well commented and uses the IBM 360 instruction set which is much easier to program for then the X86 processor. It also cheats by using assist specific macros which are not normally available.
Prime CSECT
BALR 12,0
USING *,12
R0 EQU 0
R1 EQU 1
R2 EQU 2
R3 EQU 3
R4 EQU 4
R5 EQU 5
R6 EQU 6
R7 EQU 7
R8 EQU 8
R9 EQU 9
R10 EQU 10
R11 EQU 11
R12 EQU 12
R13 EQU 13
R14 EQU 14
R15 EQU 15
L R2,NumOfPrimes
L R3,=F'4' 2 and three are primes so start at 4
ST R3,Count keeps track of what number testing for prime
While EQU *
L R3,Count
L R4,NumPrimeFound
C R4,NumOfPrimes
BNL EWhile found the max number of primes we need finish loop
ST R3,IsPrimePCB Store the number were testing to see if it is prime
BAL R1,IsPrime
L R3,Count
L R4,IsPrimePCB+4 If R4 contains a value>0 then R3 is prime
C R4,=F'0'
BE EndIf
* Convert R3 to decimal and print with Assist instructions
XDECO R3,OUT
* XPRNT OUT,12
WTO OUT
L R4,NumPrimeFound Since we found a prime add 1 to number of primes we found
A R4,=F'1'
ST R4,NumPrimeFound
EndIf EQU *
A R3,=F'1' Add 1 to count so we test the next largest number for being prime
ST R3,Count
B While
EWhile EQU *
BR 14
* subroutine to find a square root to the nearest hole number
* if called with 53 it will return 7
* subroutine control block is SqrtPCB
* First 4 bytes of control block contain the number we want to find the square root for
* second 4 bytes contain the square root we found
Sqrt EQU *
* r3 count register, r5 number to take the root of, R6 and R7 registers used for multiplication
L R3,=F'1'
L R5,SqrtPCB
SqrtW1 EQU *
A R3,=F'1' add 1 to our counter
LR R7,R3
MR R6,R7
C R7,SqrtPCB
BH SqrtEw1 If value of multiplication is greater then SqrtPCB we found the square root
B SqrtW1
SqrtEW1 EQU *
* A R3,=F'1' square root is value of counter register-1
ST R3,SqrtPCB+4 store square root in control block
BR R8
* Subroutine to test a number to see if it's prime
* IsPrimePCB is the control block and is 8 bytes long
* When calling the sub the first 4 bytes should contain the number you want ot test
* When the sub returns bytes 5 through 8 will contain 0 if the number was not prime
* or a value greater then 0 of the number was prime
IsPrime EQU *
* Initialize stuff
L R2,=F'1'
ST R2,IsPrimePCB+4 If we return IsPrimePCB+4>0 we found a prime
L R2,IsPrimePCB
ST R2,SqrtPCB
BAL R8,Sqrt find square root of the number were testing for prime
L R2,SqrtPCB+4
L R3,=F'2' divide by 2, 3, 4, etc while testing for remainder
LR R4,R3
* Loop that divides n/num to test for prime, n+1/num to test for prime, etc
IsPrimeWhile EQU *
LR R3,R4
C R3,SqrtPCB+4
BNL IsPrimeEndWhile If R3>square root were done testing the number
ST R3,Temp Need to use R3 in division but D is way easier then dR
L R11,IsPrimePCB Load number were testing for prime
L R10,=F'0'
D R10,Temp
ST R10,IsPrimePCB+4 If this contains 0 we don't have a prime
C R10,=F'0'
BE IsPrimeEndWhile We don't have a prime so just return
A R3,=F'1' Just like ++ in java
LR R4,R3
B IsPrimeWhile
IsPrimeEndWhile EQU *
BR R1 Caller will check IsPrimePCB+4 >0 we found a prime
* Storrage
SqrtPCB DC 2F'0'
OUT DS CL12 typical output area for use with assist instructions
Count DC F'0'
NumOfPrimes DC F'1000' How many primes do you want to find?
IsPrimePCB DC 2F'0'
Temp DC F'0'
NumPrimeFound DC F'2'
END
Wow! Seriously, I'm majorly impressed right now. I could figure out what the program was for, but not having any knowledge of the language, I can't say exactly what each symbol means, though I was able to figure enough of it out to know what it was supposed to do several times. Mathematics really isn't my strong point. *smile* Still, it doesn't look so complicated that I don't think I could ever learn it. I've had at least one person tell me that I should start with Assembly but I'd probably get more use out of QuickBASIC, at least, as a beginner. Still, it's something interesting to ponder and I could be wrong here.
I want to use punch cards. The are the last known "accessible" computing device. No symbols so I need not think abstractly, and hell I can feel the holes in the cards. So provided I don't have the card upside down, I should be good to go.
Ah, but what happens when I'm a clumsy oaf and drop the whole damn deck? I'll probably be crankier'n a new-ager with a pack of shuffled tarot cards.
But besides that, and the fact that there is no modern software for it, it's all good. After all we now have all these lazy people typing when they could exercise their fingers and punch cards.
And, I've got to ask around and see if there's a way I can get a keypunch online with some new retrofit software. Top it off, I only need a rag mag to pontificate using semifactual data on the benefits of the punch card system.
Not to be outdone, I'm sure there someone out there who will insist upon using plug boards, though.
Never heard of a plug board, but as tongue in cheek as your post was, and it did make me laugh, I saw a pack of unused punch cards on EBay the other day for about $10. I forget which computer they work with but anyway. If older software still does the job and is reasonably accessible, not only in the blind sense but in actually being able to find it and use it in a generally decent, somewhat or even completely modern machine, then what's the problem? I prefer wysiwyg software myself but have found WordStar as well as some clones of that program which are more up-to-date. I've even found Visicalc, the first spreadsheet program. Sure, I could use Lotus 123, Quatro Pro or other more modern software, but if I'm writing something strictly for myself and WordStar or Visicalc happens to work for me, what's the issue?
Tiff, for a price, I will personally go to your house and resolve your issues as I am always looking for work. And, assembly isn't a good starting point. As a programmer myself I can tell you it is scary.
Hmm. Would you be willing to install DOS, it's proper drivers and some software onto a laptop if I sent it to you? That would be very helpful. Also, if you have any ideas as to what software I can use for antivirus and security, for writing (should handle txt and perhaps rtf), for ocr scanning, internet browsing (including whatever drivers are needed), for playing and recording mp3s that would be great. I actually have the Wordperfect Editor, but it acts a bit strangely with VocalEyes so I need to test it under a different reader. I've got Recognita for scanning, but not the latest version. I've heard of Omnipage and think 6 is the version I need but need to see which scanners work with both packages so that I can at least start there.
I could install drivers but really you could do that easily. it is dos, after all.
It's simpler than you think.
And after the drivers are installed? Smile. Dos is ready and then?
I have to agree with you here. *smile* I know that much I could certainly do, once I get the machine. But since you offered to help me, I figured I'd ask. Once it's ready, then it's time for me to use the stuff that I know how to use and to read up on the rest, including the expanded features of the os, and try it all out. Also, it'll be time for me to begin QuickBasic. I totally forgot to put that on my cf card to see if I can run that under the command prompt under XP. Oops. Anyway, help with software suggestions would be truly appreciated.
You know I wonder why you just don't take the machine to a computer shop and have it done for you? I have asked this question on another one of your boards about finding a shop, talking to the techs, and maybe they will give you a hand, or guide you to a hobby group that is like minded, or loves to fool around? What keeps you from investagating this option?I am just interested? If you are willing to send your computer to someone why not local?
You're really gonna need help with the security measures. If you really want to do this, you better build a tank.
I'll definitely need to not only search on Google but to ask the guys at computing.net. They're experts in this stuff. I like the idea of going to a computer shop and seeing what they could do. I could print out the directions on how to install the os and provide them with cds and floppies, just incase, as well as some disks containing the software that I want. I believe the other time that you suggested it to me, it was in regards to having my dream machine made. Unfortunately, I don't have the money for that. I really wish I did. But this shouldn't cost too much.
Sadly if you went to a shop you risk getting laughed at. Nobody will want to build a dos machine. Better toy around with it.
I'd bet they'd do anything if the price is right. Now, as for their skill? that's another story.
My suggestion is to go to a shop, or talk with the techs that run it. You'd not have to give them instructions, because they'd know if they like fooling around. College computer labs would also be a interesting try. Students love to play, so free, and helping you would provide some with class credits. Smile.
I read the first 20 posts, and I'll say this; I probably will come across as an asshole, but that's ok.
I'm getting slightly tired of seeing posts about what she wants to do, and was said before never happens. She wants to use dos and has little to no reason for not using Linux. She's throwing huge words around that she has no understanding of.
Why don't you stfu and go get a manual worth reading? No-one uses qbasic today. No-one uses dos except for the command line. There are spinoffs of dos, but I highly doubt that much will run on them, as they have different kernels behind them. By nothing I mean a screen reader.
You will not be able to write a screen reader in qbasic, or if you did it would be really slow and sluggish as qbasic is interpreted. If you were willing to do all of this, you'd have looked things up besides throwing around comments on a board where you just make yourself look stupid.
Learn modern technology, learn to back up the bullshit you spew more often than not, and people might actually take a serious look at what you say, and not just read your posts for amusements sake.
That's my ten cents, and I'm hopping off the soap box.
eace!
so I read a bit farther down.
First, to someone who wants to run dos and isn't even aware of encryption, yes. I'd love to see you hack someone with leopard or xp pro. Even if you were able to track the so-called "hacker," through the launchpad or central point they're using if they're even near good, I highly doubt you'd "send a virus at them."
What did you plan to do, tell their iptables or whatever they're running as a firewall to let it through, then run it?
If you join the group of people still in the stone age with dos, it probably won't run on modern hardware, thus encryption is out the door, unless you have lots of time to waste while it does the encryption, assuming it will even go so far.
As I said in my earlier post, go read a book before you talk about getting back at hackers. It would be a lot better for you. Go learn Linux if you want something secure; you'll have the security, it won't be proprietary software, you can learn to program there and help the open source community, and most of all I'll not see any more ludacris posts about you ruling the world with dos.
Very well put, and I completely agree.
If you don't like it don't read it. I have no intention of using Linux, as I've said several times. I have a very nice tutorial on QuickBASIC, with step by step instructions on how to use it. I just need to figure out how I'm going to do this. I might create the program in Notepad and then using the compiler on the other machine to put it together. I was really hoping to do all of this within the program itself but I think this will work for now. If I really enjoy this and if I should come across limitations with this language I'll switch to another one. I'm starting with this because it's very simple. It's a standard in learning and I see no reason why I can't start here. It's not like I can't create any programs at all with it. It's just that, for the more advanced things, I'll need to learn another one. As for DOS incription, I'll look that up and see what I can find. I know that there are antivirus programs etc. out there for it but don't know what else there is. I know that FreeDOS, at least, does work with screen readers because there's a list for it with blind people on it. So if nothing else, I can use that. I also know where to find the manual for Enhanced DR-DOS if it works. Right now, I'm trying to gather the software that I'll need and then, once I have it and know that it works, I'll take the time to learn how to use it. QB I know works so I'm gonna give it a shot.
Don't read it? Have you noticed that you seem to hold half of the table currently in topics started? Your nonsensical bullshit kind of doesn't escape notice.
It's my freedom to post it and it's your freedom not to respond or to read it. Most of the topics that have no answers I don't bring up again. But it seems that we go into lengthy discussions, even when my original question is answered. Then, there are times when I ask a simple answer and get huge complicated answers that often don't even answer the question. In those cases where I do learn what I wanted to know, as you see, I don't bring the topics up again.
I agree with the creator accept for the harsh tonality of the posts. Dos will fail you like a broken condom.
The end.
ok. I won't have time to reply to all of this, but I will say, I'm not using any antivirus software here either and have never gotten a virus. I know this because I've used symantic's free scanning utilities and do so once in a while.
Virus scanners only surve to slow down your system. Really, it takes forever to start windows up with them. I use Windows Defender with Windows 7.
If anyone wants a lightweight virus and malware protection tool, use Microsoft Security Essentials. It's free and highly highly useful. The trouble is that I reinstall my laptop so many times I don't have the time nor the strength to download Microsoft security essentials (4 mb) on dial-up + the 85 mb of other virus definitions that you need to get afterward. It works great with jaws too.
Hmm...interesting thread.
It looks like you have a genuine interest in learning about screen readers and how they are implemented. The short answer is that you probably can't write a screen reader on any graphical desktop (or DOS for that matter) without at least taking the first/second year courses in a computer science curriculum or doing a significant amount of reading on your own.
As far as DOS and writing a screen reader, assembly mixed with C would be possible, but straight assembly realistically isn't. Assembly is the rawest form of programming that most humans can reasonably do. You are talking at a level close to how the machine works; that implies you *know* how a CPU processes instructions, bytes are stored/loaded from memory, registers hold information for *very fast* retrieval, etc.
A screen reader needs to process lots of input from the user, monitor what goes on with the system state as the user moves around, and output some information to a device that knows how to convert raw character strings to audio. This isn't trivial. You should probably start learning how to program in something a little higher level like Java or C#. Then, work your way down to how the machine actually works...
You can btw look at how screen readers are implemented as some are open source (NVDA in python for example), but again, YMMV, since you need to put in the effort to learn the heavy weight concepts that your average run of the mill programmer won't know; it's these concepts that make large and complex programs like this *work* properly.
Don't waste your breath...she really doesn't know what she is doing. Dos, programming...and such!
Please ignore the last post. I sincerely thank you for your assistance and for answering me in such a clear manner. I'd actually decided, quite a ways back in this thread, not to go with Assembly, due to the complexities that you mentioned. The screen reader idea, in any case, was very far down the line. I am, instead, beginning with QuickBASIC. If you could help me find certain DOS software that is screen reader accessible, such as a text editor or wordprocessor, an internet browser capable of handling modern pages and wireless or ethernet connections, security software, ocr scanning software, an mp3 player and recorder and anything else you think I would need, please message me offlist. I'm aware that Net-Tamer works via dial-up and has all necessary drivers etc. and that Lynx, which is a stand-alone browser exists as well, but I'm not sure if the former can work with anything other than dial-up and I'm not sure if the latter can work with modern pages since it's text-only. I have Recognita, though not the latest version, and I need to get a compatible scanner. So I'm trying to decide if I should use that package or get Omnipage 6 or something similar. I can't find Open Book Unbound anywhere.
okay...my last post was a bit...insane and unhelpfull. But actually, it was helpful in a way...
Will she ever give in and listen to all of you? I doubt it!
Though I think I can understand the motivation to want to use DOS, you would be better served using whatever setup you currently have. You're goal, after all, isn't to learn how to setup/access DOS, it's to learn how to code. What you should keep in mind is that writing code for DOS means that you will be executing (or running) that code in DOS. Unless you really want to use DOS as your every day system (and putting up with its limitations, inaccessibility, etc), this won't be very interesting.
Lynx, btw, is a text-only browser found on *linux* distributions. The other requirements you listed don't really have any support in DOS to any extent. DOS was never meant to be "full-featured" especially if you have modern peripherals and modern use cases like mp3 recording, web browsing, etc through a command line since all users of this type go to linux.
Why have you settled on quick basic? It's specifically tied to compiling binaries for DOS (with an interpreter for interactive debugging/learning). If you had a DOS machine lying around, then go for it; otherwise, it's not worth the effort to just get started.
Who on Earth still uses a Keynote Gold? I had one back in 1996.
I am a computer science major, and after programming in C++ (several semesters), assembly, and beginning with Java, I have come to the following conclusion:
It's hard. I still don't have the knowledge and experience to write a screen reader. So if you're stuck with a Keynote Gold with a broken keyboard, all I can say is sorry. Good luck.
What I got out of my undergraduate computer science courses is that it really doesn't matter what language you use, it's all about the concepts that explain why you are doing the things you do. The language is just a precise statement of the desired behavior of your executable. You need to draw upon knowledge of the host operating system, the medium by which you store data, the algorithms you use to accomplish tasks, the process you come up with to build the software, etc. That can only come with time and a curriculum that forces you to learn the material; if you're exceedingly motivated too, I suppose you could attain the same grasp on the required topics, but it's hard without that guidance you get from world class professors that have devoted their lives to studying the subject/craft.
It's actually easier to write a screen reader than you think in windows if you just utilize the massive .Net assemblies you have at your disposal. For example, SAPI, basic/moderately complex datastructures, UI Automation, etc are all there to do with as you please. Much of the heavy lifting's already nicely done for you by others (Microsoft mostly).
I agree about 95%. There can be a slight difference in memory performance so you may be forced to go lower level c++ rather than in interpreted language for very specific applications. With improved technology and compilation techniques and better processors this becomes less and less necessary though. Microsoft claims as of vs 2008 and .net 2.0 there is little to no difference between a vb.net app and c# app in terms of how fast they run, since it is all compiled into their rCLR anyway.
I know some parts of NVDA were written in c++ for memory resource considerations, but it is over 90% written in Python.
And it is another point, why start from scratch when one can contribute to an existing high quality effort. NVDA is pretty good, a lot of things have been written such as buffers and of screen module type handling, which is very difficult to do (you can just read the programmers blogs and see how much time and effort went into these things).
With object orientation and now with web services there is an incredible amount of stuff you can do with relatively few lines of code, and that is very encouraging.
And what about making it work with Braille displays? I've just now heard of NVDA, so I don't know if this has already been done. I will not use a screen reader without access to Braille, since I find coding impossible this way. I have asked those in charge of the computer science lab at my school not to upgrade to JAWS 11 for this reason.
NVDA is compatible with only a few braille displays natively, but supports a lot more braille displays through the BRLTTY library, which you can download and install pretty easily (there are instructions on how to do this in the NVDA manual). I am just about to test this actually, but have heard users find this a very useful thing, though not as good as the native support *some key functions, mouse clicks etc may not work on all types of displays).
I believe NVDA works natively with HandyTech braille displays.
There is an initiative going on, or ust starting, called the Open Braille Initiative, where a bunch of the manufacturers will get together and make a standardized set of braille instructions and then work with Microsoft to recognize a braille display automatically. This work has just started so I would expect a few years until we see this in action.
Especially with the nwe Freedom Scientific antics, initiatives like these will become super important.
A lot of manufacturers have given in to FS demands though so you may want to see if yours is supported by Jaws 11.
You guys are working to hard. Smile. She wants to use Dos as her every day setup as if it were Windows or any other OS. It is a dream she has that Dos is or better then others because of it's simplicity. You all understand this is a dream and why, but she is set, so as a hobby it is okay.
I've loved DOS ever since I was a teenager but the lack of a computer for the purpose and then school and life got in the way. I've since used windows 95, 98, 2000 (briefly), XP Leopard and Snow Leopard. so it's not as if I haven't tried a variety of systems. But now that I've been out of college since 2006 and have relocated the cable to my KeyNote Voicecard synth, as well as my echos, I want to get back to it. My goal is to eventually use DOS for most things. The exception might be my Greek things and messengers, though I've heard that there is an ESpeak for DOS floating around somwehre, so even that might be possible. Learning how to code is part of that goal, for times when I might come across inaccessible software with no alternatives or for when I can't find a specific program that I might want. There are several versions of DOS, FreDOS and Enhanced DR-DOS in particular, which are still being developed. Both have gui as well as traditional command line interfaces and software is still being written for the os in general. Plus, there's a huge bunch of abandonware and freeware out there too. It's just a matter of finding what's accessible and what's not. That's where the screen reader comes in. I have Vocaleyes, JAWS for DOS, PROVOX tinyTalk, and a demo of ASAP, but I'm not sure how well any of these will work with the modern software. since I'm most familiar with VocalEyes, it would really benefit me to learn how to write set files for it if I can. I'm also really excited about trying ASAP, since I now have the manual for it. It's supposed to read certain things automatically but it too has the ability to accept new set files. So I may just go with one of those. Not sure about JAWS, though I've heard their documentation is excellent. PROVOX is open source, and is what made me consider Assembly in the first place, but it seems way too difficult from the start, even down to the installation. As a sidenote, I know that there are some blind people on the FreeDOS list. the only reasons why I'm starting with Enhanced DR-DOS are that it's based off an already existing version, DR-DOS from Kaldera, and it's updated far more frequently than FreeDOS.
Anyway, if you're interested, for knowledge's sake, here are the links to Enhanced DR-DOS and to a page with fallacies and their corrections respectively.
http://drdosprojects.de/
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~ak621/DOS/DOS-Fal.html
The second link is extremely interesting, since it debunks alot of myths and misconceptions that people have about DOS today, including working with modern hardware like usb and wireless internet, and dsl, playing modern files like mp3s, multitasking and more. Admittedly, this is partly an opinion piece, but the writer did give some very good information. My Keynote isn't missing keys. Humanware stripped down the verion of MS-DOS in it and the laptop itself was made without certain keys, I forget which ones off hand, that QuickBASIC needs. I've chosen that as my starting point because of it's simplicity. I've heard that it's very easy to learn and was a standard for many years. Plus, I found a nice tutorial for it. I also like how it's got it's own compiler built in, and when I looked at the code shown on wikipedia, it seemed fairly easy to understand.
I believe what we are looking at in this case is not one's love for a defunct operating system, but one's desire to live in the past. It is certainly an interesting pathology and a great case study...but I am not a psych major...I am an I T major. Still, it's fascinating.
Do you find it great that your download of QB has a debugger built in? It is pretty standard for any IDE to have a debugger built in, and from some post here it seems you can't even use the editor but must write a text file and compile it on the command line, not that you have managed to do so yet.
Eclipse editor works damn nicely, so does visual studio, both have superb debugging tools for a lot of languages.
The editor works. It's the computer that's giving me a problem. That one doesn't even have the standard edit.exe on it... Very annoying.